Why can it not be enjoyable? I understand that films and sex work are extremely exploitative, but I prefer (unproblematic of course) drawn and written smut by individual artists, or even sometimes writing/drawing my own. Would these avenues not be substantially more ethical to consume then things that come out of the extremely exploitative pornography industry?
Proponents of anti-pornography, feminism and other pro-women movements might argue that all forms of porn, even if no real humans partake in the activity, still contribute to an over-sexualized, over-fetishized image of women among the target audience; mostly, heterosexual males.
Firstly, who said that the porn I was consuming included women at all? Even so, if they were, over-sexualized, and over-fetishized depictions are very disgusting to me and I do not enjoy them. Hence why I like to consume comics depicting normal or healthy relationships, or unproblematic and consensual kinks.
I feel like you are still looking at this from the lens of drawn or written porn being in the same vein as generic porno-film quality with cheesy or problematic dialogue, with exaggerated moans and emotionless sex.
I feel like this speaks more about the problematic nature of what porn depicts, rather then the medium itself. This would be like saying that consensual sex is bad, because rape exists.
Pornography is not banned in China. Selling, purchasing, transporting, or producing it for PROFIT is banned. If you want to draw or write some smut and put it on an 18+ forum, no one cares or is going to stop that. Self made porn is also not banned if you aren’t disseminating it for profit (something like Onlyfans). Artistic, educational, and medical depictions also have exemptions under Chinese law, and a lot of drawn pornography sites use the artistic exemption.
If you make a website selling pornographic art or films or open a film studio, that’ll get taken down and is very illegal. For example the site Erotica Juneday required users pay around 20-500 dollars a year for their service. That was taken down and the administrators were imprisoned. The Chinese version of DeviantArt and Rule34 however are free and run no advertisements, and they have remained up for years.
Peer to peer dissemination is also not illegal, which is why services like Baidu offer that as a service.
Further, the vast majority of Chinese people use VPN’s, and it is estimated that a large percentage of that traffic is to foreign pornographic sites.
Feminists and other pro-women movements have a lot of different opinions on pornography. Some agree with the position you’re describing, but to my knowledge it’s far from a consensus.
Indeed. I am still working up the courage, but I would like to try being a cam girl. NOT because I need the money, but because it sounds fun to me. It’s just a bit of sex.
Edit: hey downvoters! How about you tell me why you think you should have some say over what I do with my body or who I show it to? And how that relates to feminism?
I’m an upvoter, but some of us may be fearful of you going into a potentially dangerous field and/or reproducing patriarchal ideas in your potential customers as well as reproducing the notion that becoming a cam girl is a fun idea in this patriarchal climate. In all the feminist literature I’ve read, though, shaming, gaslighting or traumatizing individual practitioners of sex-work or adjacent work was never presented as a good or feasible idea, and I assume you’re aware of the risks and are doing it despite not having a need for money, so I support you here.
I’m brown, trans, and becoming openly communist. Safety went out the window long long ago. That doesn’t mean that a girl can’t have a bit of fun. Life isn’t worth living if I choose to spend it in fear.
As far as reinforcing patriarchal ideas? I think sex workers have some seriously underrated power.
100% agree with this and would argue that “smut” or any other form of pornography will always be unacceptable due to this reason and the argument that “it’s drawn” is a ridiculous reason as it still promotes these ideas. We wouldn’t say “oh it’s just drawn or written” about anything else and saying that “it’s just pixels” sounds an awful lot like a certain other group
That is a subjective viewpoint from your personal tastes. How does that determine morality? Who are you to say that its slightly worse but not acceptable?
I would argue that it’s not acceptable for the reasons given but the idea that it’s not as bad as traditional pornography is subjective and my own opinion. I won’t say that that is absolutely true but is simply what I think.
I can agree with you there. That is reasonable and how opinions work. However the reasons listed are themselves still subjective since they do not apply to a wide array of situations. The problem arises more in attempting to impose that ideal on others who don’t hold it.
That is reasonable to do when there are significant moral and ethical issues (CP, Bestiality, Revenge Porn, Rape, exploitatively media, inaccurate depictions, purposeful objectification and so on), but simply stating that sexual material as a monolith is entirely unacceptable would face immense backlash.
I understand why even if it may be something that people wouldn’t want to be opposed to but I do believe we ought to work to show why at least the more “mainstream” extremely problematic “pornography” ought to be opposed. I still think all sexual content ought to be opposed but that’s a lesser goal I think. I think some AES states have good policies on opposing sexual content without serious artistic or scientific value
I readily agree, exploitative and problematic depictions should be rallied against and serve little purpose in a progressive world. Thats why I stood in defense of the majority of drawn and written works, they avoid the common disgusting nature that something that the porn film industry perpetuates.
What I am arguing for is also what the vast majority of AES countries have implemented. For example, in China, porn is completely legal. No one cares if you draw boobies or dicks, film yourself with your partner (consensually of course), or write about your (unproblematic) fantasies. Hell, there are Chinese version of Rule34 and other porn art based websites. However, the porn industry is extremely highly monitored and illegal, physical sex work is very rare and illegal, and you cannot “advertise with sex”.
That seems reasonable and entirely achievable. It both accomplishes countering the negative affects like you mentioned, prevents exploitation, and does not attempt to do something entirely unachievable or unenforceable such as rallying against all sexual content.
Also, another massive problem is who gets to decide what is or isn’t sexual content?
How? Lets say for example you draw a couple engaging in regular sex, how does this promote exploitation or reducing people to objects?
If a persons takeaway from drawn or written porn depicting nothing more then regular sexual encounters is that the subjects in it are nothing more then objects, that seems to speak more about the viewer then the medium.
That’s like the “Video games cause violence” narrative. If you cannot detract fiction from reality, that is an issue with the viewer.
Do you see two people engaging in an in-person sexual-attraction based hookup as exploitation?
Japan and their drawn porn filled with sexual assault and pedophilia definitely is oo and does not help perpetuate their rampant misogyny and sexual harassment issue
Because it reduces the interaction of the person with the media to the concept of sexuality. As that is normalized it leads to association of people with that. The media=sexualness and because the depiction of the people is sexual is leads to the idea that the people are also objects that are for sex because that’s what they are in the media. Seeing something over and over will have an effect on people. Essentially, objectifying the charecters by association with sex as well as the normalization of objectivity. Obviously, it’s not as bad as traditional “pornography” but that doesn’t mean it’s good
Alright? I struggle to see the conflict here, you are again describing an issue with the viewer rather then the medium.
That is also a massive leap in logic. How will people viewing sex cause them to view the other gender as nothing more then objects of desire? Again, if a person cannot disconnect their reality from a fictional medium, that is a personal issue. Further, of there is nothing problematic being depicted, then what is the negative takeaway in this scenario?
You also run into the issue that the vast majority of humans are inherently sexual. That is how we have literally survived as a species for hundreds of thousands of years. Humans have also been masturbating for hundreds of thousands of years, so how would you magically attempt to cease a base human instinct? Lets say a person did not have access to pornography, would they not just then resort to their imagination which would serve the exact same purpose??? Could people not simply just imagine others in their minds as “objects of desire”?
Again, this seems to be a societal, and educational problem rather then one related to the medium of drawn or written smut.
Because the sex is still the point of the interaction with the media and hence creates an idea where the idea that interaction may solely be sexual and that is what causes objectification. And the difference with the idea of imagination is two differences. One being that it is nearly impossible to regulate and the other one being that the point of imagination is not sexual meaning that it serves other purposes. (And I am sorry if I come off as rude or something, I am trying not be at all but it can be hard to be clear of emotion of phrasing on the internet
I think that the discussion around the abolition of pornography is so difficult for men to talk about as we - most of us - want to see pretty, naked girls; however, for the sake of public harmony, it’s probably something that just has to be accepted.
I do not want to see pretty, naked girls. I’m gay. I want to see big burly men. Well toned and naturally athletic men, pretty naked men.
Me enjoying this on my own time does not lead me to view the people around me as objects of desire. That would be sick, demeaning, and exploitative.
Eradicating porn in the way you describe would be impossible. Further, how are artists going to learn anatomy? Every single art program will teach the nude form. Would those artists practice sketches be considered porn? What if they masturbated to it? Are medical textbooks that show the nude figure sexual? Are historical paintings of people having sex now porn?
This entire concept seems extremely utopian and idealist with no realistic way of being accomplished.
I don’t feel like I want that because I don’t view other people in a sexual way. My goal is that other people ought to be viewed as people but not as “pretty, naked girls”. I think a lot of people care more about their immediate satisfaction than about the general consequences of their actions and the things that their actions promote. I, at this point, don’t really talk about my opposition to it very often because so many other people defend it I find it easier to not talk about. I find it interesting what you say about men not wanting to talk about it because I do think that’s true online. But in person I find most people, if it’s being discussed (that I’m around at least) are very very agaisnt it and openly against the people that consume it.
I enjoy everything, tbh.
What about pornography?
Why can it not be enjoyable? I understand that films and sex work are extremely exploitative, but I prefer (unproblematic of course) drawn and written smut by individual artists, or even sometimes writing/drawing my own. Would these avenues not be substantially more ethical to consume then things that come out of the extremely exploitative pornography industry?
Proponents of anti-pornography, feminism and other pro-women movements might argue that all forms of porn, even if no real humans partake in the activity, still contribute to an over-sexualized, over-fetishized image of women among the target audience; mostly, heterosexual males.
Firstly, who said that the porn I was consuming included women at all? Even so, if they were, over-sexualized, and over-fetishized depictions are very disgusting to me and I do not enjoy them. Hence why I like to consume comics depicting normal or healthy relationships, or unproblematic and consensual kinks.
I feel like you are still looking at this from the lens of drawn or written porn being in the same vein as generic porno-film quality with cheesy or problematic dialogue, with exaggerated moans and emotionless sex.
I feel like this speaks more about the problematic nature of what porn depicts, rather then the medium itself. This would be like saying that consensual sex is bad, because rape exists.
I guess…that doesn’t sound too bad? Your suggestion seems fine to my ears, but others might disagree.
Regardless, pornography will most likely be banned in all socialist countries anyways; just like how it’s banned in China, for instance.
Pornography is not banned in China. Selling, purchasing, transporting, or producing it for PROFIT is banned. If you want to draw or write some smut and put it on an 18+ forum, no one cares or is going to stop that. Self made porn is also not banned if you aren’t disseminating it for profit (something like Onlyfans). Artistic, educational, and medical depictions also have exemptions under Chinese law, and a lot of drawn pornography sites use the artistic exemption.
If you make a website selling pornographic art or films or open a film studio, that’ll get taken down and is very illegal. For example the site Erotica Juneday required users pay around 20-500 dollars a year for their service. That was taken down and the administrators were imprisoned. The Chinese version of DeviantArt and Rule34 however are free and run no advertisements, and they have remained up for years.
Peer to peer dissemination is also not illegal, which is why services like Baidu offer that as a service.
Further, the vast majority of Chinese people use VPN’s, and it is estimated that a large percentage of that traffic is to foreign pornographic sites.
deleted by creator
Holy shit unbelievably based China granting random smut artists complete control of smut production?
Seize the means of production.
Feminists and other pro-women movements have a lot of different opinions on pornography. Some agree with the position you’re describing, but to my knowledge it’s far from a consensus.
Indeed. I am still working up the courage, but I would like to try being a cam girl. NOT because I need the money, but because it sounds fun to me. It’s just a bit of sex.
Edit: hey downvoters! How about you tell me why you think you should have some say over what I do with my body or who I show it to? And how that relates to feminism?
I’m an upvoter, but some of us may be fearful of you going into a potentially dangerous field and/or reproducing patriarchal ideas in your potential customers as well as reproducing the notion that becoming a cam girl is a fun idea in this patriarchal climate. In all the feminist literature I’ve read, though, shaming, gaslighting or traumatizing individual practitioners of sex-work or adjacent work was never presented as a good or feasible idea, and I assume you’re aware of the risks and are doing it despite not having a need for money, so I support you here.
I’m brown, trans, and becoming openly communist. Safety went out the window long long ago. That doesn’t mean that a girl can’t have a bit of fun. Life isn’t worth living if I choose to spend it in fear.
As far as reinforcing patriarchal ideas? I think sex workers have some seriously underrated power.
More power to you. Just keep yourself safe out there. It can be a nasty business.
If you find fun in it, and you are not causing any harm. Then what’s stopping you? Have fun and that’s all that matters!
100% agree with this and would argue that “smut” or any other form of pornography will always be unacceptable due to this reason and the argument that “it’s drawn” is a ridiculous reason as it still promotes these ideas. We wouldn’t say “oh it’s just drawn or written” about anything else and saying that “it’s just pixels” sounds an awful lot like a certain other group
And more ethical to consume doesn’t mean ethical. It may be slightly less worse but that doesn’t mean acceptable or okay
That is a subjective viewpoint from your personal tastes. How does that determine morality? Who are you to say that its slightly worse but not acceptable?
I would argue that it’s not acceptable for the reasons given but the idea that it’s not as bad as traditional pornography is subjective and my own opinion. I won’t say that that is absolutely true but is simply what I think.
I can agree with you there. That is reasonable and how opinions work. However the reasons listed are themselves still subjective since they do not apply to a wide array of situations. The problem arises more in attempting to impose that ideal on others who don’t hold it.
That is reasonable to do when there are significant moral and ethical issues (CP, Bestiality, Revenge Porn, Rape, exploitatively media, inaccurate depictions, purposeful objectification and so on), but simply stating that sexual material as a monolith is entirely unacceptable would face immense backlash.
I understand why even if it may be something that people wouldn’t want to be opposed to but I do believe we ought to work to show why at least the more “mainstream” extremely problematic “pornography” ought to be opposed. I still think all sexual content ought to be opposed but that’s a lesser goal I think. I think some AES states have good policies on opposing sexual content without serious artistic or scientific value
I readily agree, exploitative and problematic depictions should be rallied against and serve little purpose in a progressive world. Thats why I stood in defense of the majority of drawn and written works, they avoid the common disgusting nature that something that the porn film industry perpetuates.
What I am arguing for is also what the vast majority of AES countries have implemented. For example, in China, porn is completely legal. No one cares if you draw boobies or dicks, film yourself with your partner (consensually of course), or write about your (unproblematic) fantasies. Hell, there are Chinese version of Rule34 and other porn art based websites. However, the porn industry is extremely highly monitored and illegal, physical sex work is very rare and illegal, and you cannot “advertise with sex”.
That seems reasonable and entirely achievable. It both accomplishes countering the negative affects like you mentioned, prevents exploitation, and does not attempt to do something entirely unachievable or unenforceable such as rallying against all sexual content.
Also, another massive problem is who gets to decide what is or isn’t sexual content?
Because it still promotes the idea of exploitation of other people by reducing them to an object.
How? Lets say for example you draw a couple engaging in regular sex, how does this promote exploitation or reducing people to objects?
If a persons takeaway from drawn or written porn depicting nothing more then regular sexual encounters is that the subjects in it are nothing more then objects, that seems to speak more about the viewer then the medium.
That’s like the “Video games cause violence” narrative. If you cannot detract fiction from reality, that is an issue with the viewer.
Do you see two people engaging in an in-person sexual-attraction based hookup as exploitation?
Japan and their drawn porn filled with sexual assault and pedophilia definitely is oo and does not help perpetuate their rampant misogyny and sexual harassment issue
/S
Because it reduces the interaction of the person with the media to the concept of sexuality. As that is normalized it leads to association of people with that. The media=sexualness and because the depiction of the people is sexual is leads to the idea that the people are also objects that are for sex because that’s what they are in the media. Seeing something over and over will have an effect on people. Essentially, objectifying the charecters by association with sex as well as the normalization of objectivity. Obviously, it’s not as bad as traditional “pornography” but that doesn’t mean it’s good
Alright? I struggle to see the conflict here, you are again describing an issue with the viewer rather then the medium.
That is also a massive leap in logic. How will people viewing sex cause them to view the other gender as nothing more then objects of desire? Again, if a person cannot disconnect their reality from a fictional medium, that is a personal issue. Further, of there is nothing problematic being depicted, then what is the negative takeaway in this scenario?
You also run into the issue that the vast majority of humans are inherently sexual. That is how we have literally survived as a species for hundreds of thousands of years. Humans have also been masturbating for hundreds of thousands of years, so how would you magically attempt to cease a base human instinct? Lets say a person did not have access to pornography, would they not just then resort to their imagination which would serve the exact same purpose??? Could people not simply just imagine others in their minds as “objects of desire”?
Again, this seems to be a societal, and educational problem rather then one related to the medium of drawn or written smut.
Because the sex is still the point of the interaction with the media and hence creates an idea where the idea that interaction may solely be sexual and that is what causes objectification. And the difference with the idea of imagination is two differences. One being that it is nearly impossible to regulate and the other one being that the point of imagination is not sexual meaning that it serves other purposes. (And I am sorry if I come off as rude or something, I am trying not be at all but it can be hard to be clear of emotion of phrasing on the internet
This argument also seems pretty logically sound.
I think that the discussion around the abolition of pornography is so difficult for men to talk about as we - most of us - want to see pretty, naked girls; however, for the sake of public harmony, it’s probably something that just has to be accepted.
It’s the same thing for meatless diets, as well.
I do not want to see pretty, naked girls. I’m gay. I want to see big burly men. Well toned and naturally athletic men, pretty naked men.
Me enjoying this on my own time does not lead me to view the people around me as objects of desire. That would be sick, demeaning, and exploitative.
Eradicating porn in the way you describe would be impossible. Further, how are artists going to learn anatomy? Every single art program will teach the nude form. Would those artists practice sketches be considered porn? What if they masturbated to it? Are medical textbooks that show the nude figure sexual? Are historical paintings of people having sex now porn?
This entire concept seems extremely utopian and idealist with no realistic way of being accomplished.
…jcpenny catalogue porn
I don’t feel like I want that because I don’t view other people in a sexual way. My goal is that other people ought to be viewed as people but not as “pretty, naked girls”. I think a lot of people care more about their immediate satisfaction than about the general consequences of their actions and the things that their actions promote. I, at this point, don’t really talk about my opposition to it very often because so many other people defend it I find it easier to not talk about. I find it interesting what you say about men not wanting to talk about it because I do think that’s true online. But in person I find most people, if it’s being discussed (that I’m around at least) are very very agaisnt it and openly against the people that consume it.